Not Brand Spankin', but Still A Noob...

Hello Again at The Trader's Den!

Thanks to all of your excellent advice some time ago, I have downloaded all of the necessary software, and have spent the past few weeks researching how to use it. After taking in tons of information, and doing a lot of test runs on my PC, I think I finally have a firm grasp on how to use EAC and TLH.

I am very anxious to sign up for some vines and start collecting as soon as possible. I feel as though I've done my homework, and will soon be able to "hold my own" with trees and vines.

In the beginning (before I knew how crappy they were), I purchased some Memorex CDR's in hopes of trading. I have been using these to test out some of my new found knowledge. Somewhere along the line, I figured out how to convert WAV files into FLAC, and burn them onto a disc.

I am now taking that disc, and trying to do a test run, to see what I would do once an audio vine actually makes its way into my mailbox.

It always seems as though my simplest questions go unanswered...here goes nothin'...

When I do get a compressed audio CD, do I still "rip" with EAC, or do I copy it to my hard drive, and convert later? When I insert my "test" disc, EAC tells me there is "No audio CD in drive", and there is a "data" (or so I'm calling it) icon with only one track (of 43 minutes, the show I am testing with has 17 tracks of about 60+ minutes).

I'm making an educated guess here, that these files are no longer considered audio, and will be "ripped" exactly, due to the fact that they are data?

I hope this is correct, but am more than willing to read a million more pages to get it right.

Again, I would like to thank you all in advance for your help and adivce. The last questions I asked were replied to with such invaluable information! I feel like without this site, I would still be aimlessly searching the internet, and still not have a clue!

Thanks A Million!

Ellen =)

[U2Lynne]

Vines are fun. Make sure you take a look at the "How to sign up for a TTD vine" thread at the top of the TTD Vines - NEW forum. You need to join the TTD Viners usergroup in order to sign-up for vines now.

Now, onto your flac/wav and burning question...

OK, so you had a CD with music on it. You used EAC to extract the 17 tracks onto your computer. They would now be on your computer as .wav files. You then used TLH to convert those .wav files to .flac files. Then, you went and burned those .flac files onto a test CD. That is what I thought you were saying. However, then you said there was only one file on this test CD? Is that correct? That is the part that confuses me. If you burn .flac files, you will be making a Data CD. So, that part makes sense when you talk about it not being an audio CD (to make an audio CD, you burn the .wav files). And, the shortened 'time' makes sense cuz .flac files take up less room than .wav files. However, you said it was only one files instead of seventeen and that is confusing me.

[Five]

I think I get what you're talking about... vines (like torrents here) are sent out in FLAC format, you simply copy these to your drive, test them (using TLH or FLAC frontend) to make sure they're okay, then put the original disc you got in the mail back in the envelope again, readdress it and mail that disc(s) to the next person. You should archive the FLAC files you copied to a CDR/DVD/external HD for long-term storage, and also you can make audio cdrs for your own personal use (to play in the car or whatever). Once a disc is ripped and converted to FLAC, it should be left that way. You can tell the diff between a data disc and an audio disc by trying to play it in a "normal" cd player... audio cds/cdrs will work in a "normal" player, data discs (FLAC/SHN/APE) will only work in your computer.

Hello, and thanks again, you guys are already a huge help.

When I insert this test CD into my drive, a screen pops up showing 17 FLAC files. When I try to open that disc with EAC, it does come up as one track, with this small icon that kind of looks like a piece of note paper (with a corner "dog earred". I was assuming that this was because the files were all compressed, and burned with no gaps. I hope that is correct. It seemed pretty strange to me as well.

Yes, this test FLAC disc that I burned will not work in my normal player, which I took as a good sign, like I actually got something right (HA!). I have been thinking of a way to catalog all of these encoded files externally, and will probably be using CDR's. I figured out how to convert back to WAV, so I can listen to these bootlegs away from my computer.

I guess my biggest concern is maintaining the integrity of the music. I know that FLAC is lossless, but I wasn't sure if I needed some kind of software that would extract FLAC files exactly, as EAC extracts audio files exactly. It seems as though data can be transferred a lot easier than audio. Well, maybe not easier, but with fewer mistakes.

Again, I'm running on assumptions and educated guesses based on the little knowledge that I have.

Thanks again for all of your help!!!!

Ellen =)

[U2Lynne]

The great thing about flac (or shn or ape) files is that you may simply drag and drop the files onto your computer. After you have them there, if you have an ffp or md5 file that came with the files, you can put it in TLH and 'verify' the files. If you don't have one, you can still verify that the flac files are fine but putting them in TLH and it will verify the files for you. With shn or ape, you would want to make an md5 of the files from the CD you are copying them from and then check that md5 against the files you had just drag/dropped onto your hard drive.

In short, flac/shn/ape files are data files and you do not need a program like EAC to extract them. EAC is used to extract the music from an audio CD into wav form.

[Five]

another important point is that "audio cdrs" (the kind that works in a "normal" cd player) is not a reliable way to archive your audio accurately. so you will want to keep a copy of the original FLAC files (or SHN/APE) and only use "audio cdrs" (the kind that EAC recognizes as multiple tracks) for personal use, for listening on your stereo or car.

of course you can do whatever you wish, but take my word for it you will want to keep a copy of the data files (FLAC) for the future and do not rely on normal "audio cdrs" for reliable storage.

[Homebrew101]

Originally Posted by Five

another important point is that "audio cdrs" (the kind that works in a "normal" cd player) is not a reliable way to archive your audio accurately. so you will want to keep a copy of the original FLAC files (or SHN/APE) and only use "audio cdrs" (the kind that EAC recognizes as multiple tracks) for personal use, for listening on your stereo or car.

of course you can do whatever you wish, but take my word for it you will want to keep a copy of the data files (FLAC) for the future and do not rely on normal "audio cdrs" for reliable storage.

I'm fairly new to this BT myself and have seen this mentioned a few times. Can you maybe explain a little more about the unreliability of audio cdr's? I started using only Taiyo-Yuden blanks because I thought they would be reliable. Should I not bother with the extra cost of T-Y since they might not last? What is the expected reliable life?

Do you archive FLACs for burning another cdr when the first fails or for future uploading? Don't worry, I know better than to convert my cdr's back to FLAC to upload in the future.

I will confess that so far I have gambled and not archived my FLAC's because the wife and I are living in very cramped quarters now (even worse next month when her son gets out of jail and moves in again!) .

I still am trying to figure out how to store just the cdr's I'm burning! I realize at some point a dvd burner would be ideal for FLAC archiving but even then space would be an issue.

[Five]

data cdrs/dvdrs have a certain amount of space reserved for error-correction that audio cds/cdrs don't. also, it is very difficult to test if there is any change in the data, this would necessitate the lengthy process of re-extraction and testing those resulting wavs against the fingerprints included with the original download. the other complication is that the audio cdr doesn't allow the additional files (i.e. txt, artwork, fingerprints) to be on the same disc, so even more time is wasted trying to find that stuff. I have tons of audio cdrs from the old days, about 15% of them are screwed up, and I don't know which are which and have no way to test other than to listen to each disc attentively on headphones all the way through. Some of my discs have deteriorated after only two years, others are still good after six. At least with my data cdrs & dvdrs I can quickly and easily tell which songs are screwed up (if any). plus, there's all the info that came with it in the download and it only takes up half the space.

hook your stereo up to your computer, then you can burn the files that you downloaded and listen any time with no delay with the added benefit of approx double the music on each disc. that will certainly save you some space. DVD-Rs are even better, they've got dual layer DVD burners in my town for $55 last time I checked. Another space saving option is getting an external hd, that is a little more expensive but it is really convenient.

I burn a few of my favorites on audio cdr for personal use in my walkman but mostly I just keep it FLAC. I want to share these shows with other ppl and the correct way to do that without any errors is to keep the FLAC files, not copying audio cdr>audio cdr>audio cdr>audio cdr>audio cdr etc. I like getting the original data files when I trade, and want to give that back to ppl as well. I also like to reseed some shows and also like to keep the files for that as well.

If you want to know how good audio cdrs are for storing music, try burning a FLAC download then see if you can get back the exact FLAC files you started with by re-extracting. By the time you figure out how to get it exactly right you will also realize that storing your music on audio cdrs is not the best strategy.

so I guess the main point is if you hook your computer up to your stereo, your music collection will use about 50% of the audio cdrs (or even less if you go DVD-R), and you will save hours of conversion & burning time, be able to test if your files are okay years down the road and have something that somebody would want to trade you for.

I will forever be blown away by this site!

Thanks everyone for your thoughtful advice. I think that the rest of the world could definitely take a lesson from the trading community! Finding such kind and helpful people is rare, and there are tons of them here!

I'm hoping that my collection and knowledge will grow from here on in, and that I will soon be able to return this kindness to the next batch of "noobs"!

*Thanks, In Bunches Like Flowers*

Ellen

[Homebrew101]

Thank you Five, very detailed answer, I truly appreciate it.

[ColinM]

These custom built boxes hold my master compressed discs. I burn them as I review them and they are left alone. Never altered. Not even decoded to burn to audio cd. I copy the originals to another folder and decode THOSE if they are not in .flac format.

Software like Burn At Once or Nero (with a plugin) can brun audio directly to audio cd.

Originally Posted by ColinM

These custom built boxes hold my master compressed discs. I burn them as I review them and they are left alone. Never altered. Not even decoded to burn to audio cd. I copy the originals to another folder and decode THOSE if they are not in .flac format.

Software like Burn At Once or Nero (with a plugin) can brun audio directly to audio cd.

EAC can also burn directly to audio CD.

To address an issue further up: When you put a data disc in and bring it up in EAC it will only show as one data track. Now, if you had a multisession CD (audio + data), you would see all of the audio tracks, and the data will show up as one data track (in EAC). Of course, if you bring it up under Windows Explorer (or Finder on a mac or Konqueror/whathaveyou on Linux), it will show each individual data file, which you can copy to your hard drive.