? for Mac Users

[AAR.oner]

Originally Posted by PaulHarald

Why do you need a log if the files are exactly the same? And I mean EXACTLY the same.

On a Mac, the files appear as .aiff on the CD so you can verify them against the copies on the hard drive. It's like copying a data disc really. Is it not that way on a PC and is that why there's so much fuss about CDs being copied perfectly and not?

Compare it to this: When we discuss copying DVDs, it's all about copying data and verifying with md5 checksum files for 100% perfection. No report, no EAC. What's the difference here?

Appreciate the input,

Wender

all in all wender, having an Extraction Log is simply important to some collectors/traders, including myself...now, some might argue that its superfluous, and for them it may be--but given the numerous "versions" of a show that can be found floating around in the "gene pool", the more info that can be passed on with a show, the better...

also, note ffooky's post above, another argument FOR xACt and extraction logs...

even if the "extra" info is unimportant to you, its very much appreciated by certain others in the community [and the # of "certain others" is quickly growing]...it might take an extra 2 mins MAX of yer time, and since this is really only going to be performed when a show is first seeded [or when receiving Audio CD formatted shows in trade and transferring them to lossless data for archiving--why people don't switch to only trading lossless data i'll never understand ]

in all honesty, and for the good of the whole taping community, i really think shows should include ATLEAST:

--the audio tracks [flac/shn/etc]
--an extraction log
--a .wav md5 checksum
--a lossless checksum [ffp or md5]
--lineage/info text

but hey, maybe i'm just an anal audio snob who wants to know everything about a show...

glad we can discuss all this though, need more Mac Techie discussions going on as our numbers are growing [bwahahahahahaha mr gates! bwahahahahaha!]

[ffooky]

Blimey, I'm going cross-eyed here !! I've been ripping pretty much all day.

I've come to the conclusion that "atom" numbers after repeated extractions are likely to be bad news. Anything with them causes 5+ red lines in EAC's little indicator and leads to sync/read errors or at best "suspicious positions".

Yes, you should try again if you get "minor problems"...a lot of tracks I came across with those today were successful on the second attempt.

My big problem has been finding discs that are not too heavily damaged but from what I've found the Finder is pretty good but definitely not reliable. I tried multiple extractions with two different drives and on occasions both of them would produce non-matching results from the same tracks, though the differences were at most 5 samples.

The most remarkable result I got was:

100% track 7 'Track07' recorded successfully
100% 0 rderr, 0 skip, 0 atom, 0 edge, 0 drop, 0 dup, 0 drift
100% 1131 overlap(0.5 .. 0.5)

This 18:30 track had plenty of 1 or 2 lines of red lights during EAC extraction and I'm now pretty sure that "overlaps" are re-reads. The remarkable thing was that I got a matching extraction from the Finder. My second attempt differed by 5 samples but the fact that Finder could produce an exact match for what took xACT 1131 overlaps and EAC plenty of red bars suggests to me that some form of correction must take place, even though the transfer from disc to HD is much quicker than either of the DAE programs.

Tracks with "atom" numbers after repeated extractions always produced non-matching rips with multiple extractions from the Finder but as I said before, you're pretty much screwed with them anyway.

I think the bottom line is that though dragging to the desktop can produce perfect results with undamaged discs, one has absolutely no way of knowing if any errors have occurred. If someone is determined to use that method I'd recommend making (at least) two full extractions and comparing them with Toast, shntool, 'diff' in the Terminal or by making MD5s for one set and running that against the second.

[U2Lynne]

Originally Posted by ffooky

I think the bottom line is that though dragging to the desktop can produce perfect results with undamaged discs, one has absolutely no way of knowing if any errors have occurred. If someone is determined to use that method I'd recommend making (at least) two full extractions and comparing them with Toast, shntool, 'diff' in the Terminal or by making MD5s for one set and running that against the second.

Maybe this is a stupid question, *but*, why can't you make an md5 of the contents on the disc and then drag/drop the contents to your hard drive and then run the md5 on the files you just made on your drive? Wouldn't that tell you that you successfully copied the files over.

I do like the idea of a logfile though.

[ffooky]

Originally Posted by U2Lynne

Maybe this is a stupid question, *but*, why can't you make an md5 of the contents on the disc and then drag/drop the contents to your hard drive and then run the md5 on the files you just made on your drive? Wouldn't that tell you that you successfully copied the files over.

I do like the idea of a logfile though.

You can't make an MD5 (or any checksum) of audio disc tracks with any utility I've tried, which pretty neatly illustrates the fact that although the Finder displays audio CD tracks as AIFFs, they ain't.

[U2Lynne]

I just did it with xACT. Something to note.... it took three minutes to get a traditional md5 created for two tracks on the CD-R, whereas it only took 1 minute to create a traditional md5 for the two tracks once they were drag/dropped onto the hard drive. Look at the results though...

CD md5:

c98b51abf0714fadd019954546310225 *1 Levitate (From All That You Can't Leave Behind Sessions).aiff
c4429df0bf11d21f778f201999ef0e7d *2 Love You Like Mad (From All That You Can't Leave Behind Sessions).aiff

HD md5:

c98b51abf0714fadd019954546310225 *1 Levitate (From All That You Can't Leave Behind Sessions).aiff
1cb36b0e049c2d77806ea19827becc41 *2 Love You Like Mad (From All That You Can't Leave Behind Sessions).aiff

It looks like the first track came over fine with no errors, but not the second track.

So, I re-drag/dropped the second track onto my drive and created another traditional md5 (again, it only took a minute):

New HD md5:

c98b51abf0714fadd019954546310225 *1 Levitate (From All That You Can't Leave Behind Sessions).aiff
c4429df0bf11d21f778f201999ef0e7d *2 Love You Like Mad (From All That You Can't Leave Behind Sessions).aiff

This time, the second track was fine.

[ffooky]

Hmm..I'll have to try my other drive for the MD5 thing but all it proves is that what was dragged over (eventually) matched how the finder viewed the CD on at least one occasion. There is no way of verifying whether that view was correct or, indeed, if the hash in the MD5 is correct.

[ffooky]

Can't edit my post for some reason.

I just made two MD5s for this uncorrectable track:

100% track 1 '20th Century Boy' recorded with minor problems (0.3% problem sectors)
100% 0 rderr, 0 skip, 4 atom, 1 edge, 34 drop, 3 dup, 0 drift
100% 221 overlap(0.5 .. 0.5663)

try 1 = da993c69f73c67a48da4ec14cdf50aa5 *1 20th Century Boy.aiff
try 2 = 6765566cfc654bb6d0c6c1e55b55f76d *1 20th Century Boy.aiff

So in order to make any attempt at a verifiable rip by drag/dropping in the Finder you'd have to make at least two MD5s, probably more, that completely tallied and then as many drag/drop extractions as necessary to produce AIFFs that verify against those MD5s.

Somehow, using xACT seems a bit easier IMO.

[AAR.oner]

Originally Posted by ffooky

Somehow, using xACT seems a bit easier IMO.

[Evenreven]

This thread is very interesting!

As a mac user, I'm very glad someone is bringing this up. If I understand the technical argot here correctly, I would agree with AAR oner et al that the xAct ripper is the way to go, not only for the log, but also for the reliability.

I'm not sure what way of ripping the drag and drop-method uses. Since the files are actually converted into .aiff files and iTunes is integrated in the OS, could it be that it uses iTunes ripping (without error correction)?

I got really nasty glitches with iTunes once - error correction enabled - ripping an official cd release for personal use. This is not at all good enough, and in the absence of an EAC kind of app for macs, I'd go for outlawing iTunes ripping of silvers for new seeds at TTD. Is this too harsh? Or just necessary? Sooner or later a nasty glitch will appear.

[AAR.oner]

Originally Posted by Evenreven

I got really nasty glitches with iTunes once - error correction enabled - ripping an official cd release for personal use. This is not at all good enough, and in the absence of an EAC kind of app for macs, I'd go for outlawing iTunes ripping of silvers for new seeds at TTD. Is this too harsh? Or just necessary? Sooner or later a nasty glitch will appear.

I'd second that motion, ESPECIALLY in re: to seeding!

iTunes [even with error correction enabled] and the Drag-n-Drop method are not nearly as reliable as xACT...plus i'm one of "those people" who believes in having the "proof" of a log...

so, IMHO--xACT is the ONLY program we should be using for extraction...

by the way, thanks again fook for going thru all the time and trouble of performing this little "experiment" for us...i'll be PMing you in the near future for possible info to include in a "Mac guide for newbs" we're working on...cheers!

[Evenreven]

Originally Posted by AAR.oner

I'd second that motion, ESPECIALLY in re: to seeding!

iTunes [even with error correction enabled] and the Drag-n-Drop method are not nearly as reliable as xACT...plus i'm one of "those people" who believes in having the "proof" of a log...

so, IMHO--xACT is the ONLY program we should be using for extraction...

by the way, thanks again fook for going thru all the time and trouble of performing this little "experiment" for us...i'll be PMing you in the near future for possible info to include in a "Mac guide for newbs" we're working on...cheers!

A mac guide for newbs (or n00bs ) would be very nice. I remember seeing a such kind of guide in the last days of the Groove. I'm sure it will be helpful for people like me too - those who aren't newbs anymore but don't use command line either. Go AAR and ffooky!

Maybe suggesting an immediate outlawing of iTunes was a bit strict - I was a wicked mood yesterday - or maybe it's just about right.

I don't know. What do you think, Lynne?

[U2Lynne]

Originally Posted by Evenreven

Maybe suggesting an immediate outlawing of iTunes was a bit strict - I was a wicked mood yesterday - or maybe it's just about right.

I don't know. What do you think, Lynne?

I actually replaced the part in the ABT Seeding Policy that said iTunes w/error correction on was an acceptable method of extraction the files. I replaced it with xACT. However, there are more places in the FAQ where it comes up and so I need to go through and find all those places.

[Evenreven]

Originally Posted by U2Lynne

I actually replaced the part in the ABT Seeding Policy that said iTunes w/error correction on was an acceptable method of extraction the files. I replaced it with xACT. However, there are more places in the FAQ where it comes up and so I need to go through and find all those places.

Wow, that was fast! Good riddance.

[Evenreven]

Looks like there's no way of seeding now without OSX 10.3 or 4. My version of xACT has a bug with the ripper, and I can't use a later version because of the OS. Well, I didn't have any seeding plans now, anyway.

[U2Lynne]

You can always go back a couple of versions. Go to versiontracker and you should find them there.